137 responses

1. The “No Human Rights Blog”?!

   1. Typo…

   2. Typo still there…

   3. OK, maybe it was more of a Freudian slip

2. Lady Hale is on top form this morning it seems from watching proceedings! :-)

   1. I’m stuck in Newport, tragically, but would be fascinated to learn how it goes today.

   2. If I understand it correctly it is a two day hearing. Judging by the banks of counsel facing the bench that seems about right, there sure are a lot of them!

3. please let us know here what they decide after today’s hearing

4. Hi FM, as Sedley LJ said there are no reported forced marriages in South America. We Pakistanis have the disgraceful distinction of “owning” 58% of all forced marriage cases – as the FCO’s FMU and Lord Lester have clarified. Not sure about anything that the FCO claims but i’ll swing with Lord Lester just to be safe. Is it just me or are advocates in the UKSC stuttering a bit too much?

5. Can’t see what Hindu marriages have to do with this at all? What a lame argument. Too right Lady Hale. “Rationale” ! OMG

6. Lord Phillips looks bored. Lunch time is quite close!

7. His arguments are rather specious Hmmmm!

8. Give us an example?

   1. hopeless! :-S

9. Jumping the gun!

   1. explained ! :-D

10. Jumping the gun! So the SSHD’s advice is to have lots of children as it engages Article 8.

    1. where do u think all this is going?

11. where do u think all this is going?where do u think all this is going?

12. well ive been watching all morning and i think the counsel for the ukba is making a right hash of it which is great!!

13. here we go again!

14. Article 8 is a vehicle

15. What a cute Mac Lord Phillips has

16. may good triumph over evil, at least once one would hope

17. I hope they change the age back to 18!!!!! :)

    1. hoping for that! fingers crossed

18. when we can have a final decision abt the case? tomrw 9th june?

    1. yes, i think so. because they will be in court tomorrow again.

    2. The case resumes tomorrow for further hearing, no decision will be given tomorrow.

    3. then, when we can have a final decision?

    4. Hi, no they won’t be giving us a decision tomorrow, I don’t think there is a fixed date for it but last time it took a few weeks. I don’t think it will be longer than 2 weeks.
       :)
       Amber

    5. Thanks for checking in here. We’ll all be thinking of you until the decision does come through.

    6. Thank you. Diego and I both feel pretty good about it after today. I thought it went even better than yesterday.
       :)

    7. Thank you Amber and Quila for all you’ve done. Thank you very much JCWI as well for putting your weight behind the adorable couple and for seeing the case to a victorious end. Your combined courage and persistence by hanging in there and putting up a good fight has made life easier for so many of us who were in a similar situation. You guys are Heroes. I just thought after having my case reviewed and receiving my spouse visa, I should come here to thank you guys. You all did a great job. We are all so proud of you guys especially Amber for proving to the Home Office that true love knows no boundaries, age, race or ethnicity. Hopefully we’ll meet up sometime and the drinks will be on me. God bless : )

    8. The case does indeed resume tomorrow. Hopefully I’ll actually see some of it tomorrow. The Supreme Court do sometimes announce the outcome on the day itself but reserve their reasons and give them later.

    9. alright, if they happen to announce results later, how long can it take? days, weeks?

    10. Probably a couple of weeks.

19. i got hearing next week same issue, where can i watch hearing now ?? live tv is offline

20. I hope the law is changed … If not… it should be taken to the european humans rights court. This law does not stop forced marriages…those bent upon forcing marriage ..will wait or forge birth certificates .. Easliy done is 3rd world countries.

21. OK, I was in Newport the whole day, for my sins, and only just returned to a decent internet connection. Can someone do me a proper match report? Happy to put it out as a proper post/email if it is well enough written.

    1. the lawyer stuttered too much and didnt have much statistics to defend his appeal .he couldnt really impress the judge :-S cant say what happens next. i hope the law changes back to 18 yrs age limit

22. I disagree that the majority of forced marriages take place in Pakistan. Whilst there may be some, the majority of marriages are arranged , but the trouble is UKBA doesn’t recognize the difference

    .It is apparent all they are interested is stop Pakistani marriages taking place in Pakistan and the forced marriage is a convenient excuse.

23. They can’t find it in the bundle!

    1. Solicitor is looking nervous to argue this.
       Not good approach to argue a good case.

    2. wot they cant find?

24. Having a visa protects spouses. Allowing them in the UK helps over keeping them abroad! Yes

25. Lord Phillips interested today, HO to furnish evidence on stats!

26. Less attractive victim, the fruits are less immediate!!! The motive is not the visa, SSHD’s case is wrong, the visa element played no part in the cases, it is not present in forced marriages. Visa not bargaining tool.

27. Lord Phillips on alternatives, Denmark still 80% people marry. Should be able to join!

28. Lord Lester said the same thing about rescuing these poor girls.

29. Lady Hale can remember everything

30. Why not be totally xenophobic like Denmark? What a great country it is! Why not just become like China or Russia and have internal passports

31. Lord Clarke on the “darkness”

32. Sedley LJ, to banish a citizen from their country is dumb. Then to mitigate this insanity by having an FMU run by the FCO is dumber still. Does the UK have unlimited resources for implementing mad rules? Yes they do!

33. Lady Hale, “such a risky thing to do to marry a foreigner”, whereas EU people are OK and you can marry them at 16 with mummy and daddy’s consent and in an outright way after 18, Oh But a Foreigner! No its 21. It would be better to raise the minimum age for drinking in the UK, people might live longer

34. Be mature before you marry a foreigner: policy aimed at discriminating against foreigners and exile for nationals who might like to marry them (probably as they are better looking!)

35. Lord Phillips “corrected” on his reading of Abdulaziz – foreigners commit forced marriages and locals don’t = discrimination

36. Even the Americans have it right it seems! Loving v Virgina, USSC held the decision contrary to art 14 of US constitution – OMG dude

37. Too right Empire is just happy to step on South Asia and Africa – its easy and makes them feel better

38. No proportionality exercise, and no consideration of race relations legislation either

39. Is it (I think that it is) Lord Brown who admits to “being lost”, how forthright of him.

40. Article 14 raised with 8 makes a joke of the submission that article 8(1) is not engaged and that article 12 is “subsumed” by article 8 – as the SSHD has submitted.

41. Anything in Baiai about discrimination? Oh yes Lady Hale does remember precisely what that was – church of England marriages

42. Adjourned by the President Lord Phillips who looked quite interested today in comparison to yesterday, maybe it was the advocate

43. what do you think the outome/decision can be?

44. A bit confused….which way is this going ?

45. There is no way out for the SSHD, the question for Ct is whether it is logical to assume that army personnel are more productive than others, police etc?

46. The issue of numbers can not be taken to marginalise human rights

47. Lord Phillips not convinced, a naval officer and a great judge

48. Time is ticking fast , “your remaining minutes” “are you wise to use them on this”???

    1. mkp, you should get yourself a twitter account!

49. It is a very evil thing! it has nothing to do with getting a visa, the court would be dealing with immigration rules instead of Convention. Forced marriages are a menace but immigration rules can not wish them away, Ct too look at vol 12 tab 131, the govt’s guidance of dealing with forced marriage “parents force marriage” , forced marriage act 2007 referred to

50. Small part of a big picture

51. SSHD has failed to provide any stats to make her case

52. FCO FMU and 85% of FM to be from abroad hence their stats are geared to make their case, almost like migration watch

53. Lord Phillips is a bit intimidated by AIRE centre’s counsel

54. No evidence that immigration law makes the problem better, in fact statistical evidence that such laws make things WORSE. Research was required but not conducted. Article 12, we follow Al Mustakim and the Baiai case, in fact genuine marriages are affected and article 12 is infringed (ref F v Switzerland) – Prison cases, O Donahue, certificates and violation, Lord Phillips intervening, Lady Hale “perhaps threshold for marriages (all) should be increased”.

55. South African Constitutional Court – “romantic” : to reduce the art 12 (“Intangibles”) rights to a certificate is wrong

    Strasbourg case O Donoghue

56. Yani Abdelaziz is now too old, wallah, life has moved on, cts treat positive obligation in a like way to negative ones

57. discrimination, against south asians and jewish communities, not unlawful per se but robust proportionality exercise necessary

58. oh but we can all become christians

59. EHRC v MoJ
    C v MoJ

    she was so cool

60. love satvinder’s turban, how smart it is, awesome barrister

61. South hall black sisters and henna on for 15 mins

62. http://www.karmanirvana.org.uk/

    honour based crimes

63. Court was told that all most, almost all, forced marriages are produced in this jurisdiction and therefore ct should look at domestic cases as well

64. Re P, when a woman won’t sponsor her family forced her to which can’t be ameliorated by the present rule

65. The Danish Act is available:

    http://www.accem.es/ficheros/documentos/pdf_reasentamiento/udlaendingelov_826_eng.pdf

    see section 9

66. Immigrants in an invidious position

67. Now there is a true son of the Punjab, yes

68. Someone please quash rule 277 now, using immigration provision to implement domestic laws is out of bounds of section 3 of of the 1971 Act, I think he said that

69. Universal blunt instrument no good, as most of the marriages it affects are in fact NOT FORCED – it is really that SIMPLE.

    1. are you for or against? lol

70. What should we expect?

    1. This rule is unlawful and does not justify by force marriage. This is a discrimination to the minorities in UK. 53% HO decisions challenged in Courts are proved wrong so just by their training, back up support and unlawfully legal advice are not enough. or their own predict surveys.

    2. UKBA views are exactly as below example.

       If there a knife crime in the London so therefore people of London should not have a knife in their house or work while other people of UK can have it but not in London.
       How stupid that would be ?

71. Guys what do you recon ? is the ruling going to be in favor of Home Office or JCWI(victims of raised age) ?
    Many thanks please share your views.

72. The court would like to thank you for you accounts and reserves its judgement…………….now the wait begins. I emailed the supreme court regarding judgement a few days ago and the said on average this would be 3 month but could be alot sooner or alot later. Lokking at other cases on the Supreme Court website the average time does stack up.

    1. Kindly someone email UK Supreme Court and ask them how long it is going to take till final decision is disclosed.

73. Thanks keyser :) were you following all the proceedings ? what you recon which side has been stronger in past two days ?

    1. I really hope they change the age back to 18! If not, they should change the UK domestic marriage age to 21 too!!! :S Its not fair.
       They dont understand the difference between a forced marriage and an arranged marriage. Yes, thier is a minoroty of forced marriages, but the cant put everyone in the same boat.

    2. You are right!! i agree with you 100%/ i really hope that they will change the age back to 18 because i miss my husband, we got married in 2009 but i diden’t know about this stupid law and i am only 19 now…We really miss each others but i can’t go next to him because of my studies and because of other problems back in my country!! By the way this arranged marriage and forced marriages that nothing to do with age seriously…:(:(

    3. Hard to tell. Law talk is not as clear as I thought. I get the feeling both parties thought they did a good job of arguing their cases. The Lords shredded both at times to get a balanced picture which is right. I would like the Home Office to lose due to my situation and the fact of the matter is A BLANKET POLICY/ BAN CAN NOT BE APPLIED TO EVERYONE WHEN THE PROPOSED TARGET IS A SMALL MINORITY, of what is a very serious issue. I personally believe that their agenda is not really to combat forced marriages at all. Funny how on the last hour the Appellant managed to find some stats on forced marriages to present to the Lords, which he claimed on the first day didn’t exist.

       I would assume based on the hearing and cases submitted the Lords should sit together and common sense most prevail. All should unanimously disallow the appeal by the Home Office. Now that would be Happy Days.

    4. but whats the decision they are going to change the law or not

    5. who won the case

74. When will we be the outcome of appeal hearing?

75. We shall expect it in few weeks time.

    1. Is that a maximum of two weeks or could it be longer?

       How long did take for the courts to make the oroginal decision with respect to the Quila case from the fate of the hearing?

       This law is a joke, as you are all aware in most countries restricted by this law; birth certificates and passports can be altered at request!

76. Does anyone know what happened? when will the decision be made? i hope the law does change back to 18!

    1. Statement of facts & issues and Appendix due date 29 Jul 2011. Its from supreme court webpage. Thanks

    2. so does it mean that we get to know the decision on 29th?

    3. Where is this on the site? I could not find it. Thanks.

77. is it even going to change? i saw the live coverge on sky news abwt the quila case and the solicitor was kinda stutterin i just the justice goes for us victims hu r sufferin of this sttupid law i reali miss my husbnd i cnt wait for anuva yer and a hlf but inshallah i hope it goes bck to 18 its a hrd case hopefully wel hve good newss

78. Supreme court response.

    “How can I find out when a judgment is due to be published?

    As soon as we are aware of a hand-down date for a judgment, it is published on our website, here: http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/news/future.html. As a general rule, judgments follow around ten weeks (excluding recess time) after the conclusion of the appeal hearing. We are unable to give any indication of the likely hand-down date for judgments not listed on the ‘Future Judgments’ page,”

79. How long is it gonna take now?

80. can i just say i am 20 years old and i applied for my husband in march and today he is with me here in the uk!!! it really depends on your application as to how genuine they think it is… i took the 50/50 chance and it came back 100%!! ive been waiting for 2 years already since i got married at 18. also i have a little one! why not try and give it a go and see you’ll never know !!!

    1. but the laws clearly say that applicatiobs wud be refused if any party is below 21! im 20 too n unable to apply

    2. hi sultana after how long did you get a visa also did it go through appeal thats great to hear

    3. hey do anyone know where at the age of 20 their partner got a visa nd they have no children?? i want to giv it a go!!

    4. Shamaila I think you will get declined.My personal opinion is that Sultanas hubby got the visa because they have a child. If the law does not change to 18 after the current court cases I think you will be wasting time and money. Theres no harm trying but i tink it wont work.

    5. thats not fair it should be equal rights for everyone!! same law for all!!

    6. hey does anyone know where at the age of 20 their partner got a visa nd they have no children?? i want to giv it a go!! thats not fair, y say the llaw is 21 nd giv visa to some at 20 thats strange. where are equal rights?? if there is a law it should be same for everyone. im happy for u sultana but everyone should be treated the same. i got married when i was 17 nd before i became 18 the law changed to 21. ive been waiting 3 years. when my husband comes we will have been married 4 years nd we still arent settled nd living together like proper husband nd wife. its not fair at all.

    7. WOW sultana, congrats.
       How old is ur husband? May be your husband is over 21. I think they are more strict on young girls coming over as % of forced marriages involving girls is high.

    8. i applied march this year and in may he got his visa. the only reason why i gave it ago is because on the previous quila post that was posted in march there was a person called boota i think and they said that 2 of their clients had won the cases they neither had a child and were 20, after that i thought maybe they are giving chances and i would apply. i think you should try coz now that the rule is neither in favour of anyone… Also do mention the quila case and give much evidence of the blanket policy!!! good luck to all those who are waiting… i feel your pain!

    9. whats the blanket policy??

    10. THANKYOU AUNTIE G. Much appreciated, i will give it a go after the decision is made. I believe it will be end of July.

    11. same here! waiting for law to go back to 18 yrs policy INSHALLAH

81. Hi does anyone know if the age has changed back to 18?
    let me know as soon as please
    thanxs

    1. they say its going to take 19 weeks from 9th of june onwards, hoping for th elaw to change soon.

    2. sorry it was 10 weeks*

82. This is soo ridiculous. It is discrimination on age and not allowing people to be free from when they want to marry whether its here, abroad or the zoo. It is every human’s right to marry whoever they like. It is so PATHETIC and NONSENSE I think. Rather than stopping force marriages, poor innocent PEOPLE LIKE ME are suffering. People are doing love and arranged and are so happy. So why are they generalising? It is for nothing and to cause hardship and destroy people lives like me and many others. Two hearts in 2 countries? It is not I Mean not easy. I have done love marriage and really happy but 19 nearly 20 suffering soo much. My husband whom I love the LAW is splitting us. We are waiting and waiting for it to CHANGE TO 18. Please pray I CANT COPE THIS no more. I feel like joining the appeal and saying what I want to say.

    1. WOW REEMA, U sound really upset, wait until the decision arrives then do something.

    2. Oh my god like with you on that one honestly in the same situation as u…….its damn hard, i just think its stupid,and they need to change it back to 18 like FAST!

83. im in the same situation. how did the other girls husbnd whn shes 20 im hppy for u yh but im suffern 2 i love my husbnd and i cnt live without hm and this fuked up law is makn us suffer i cnt wait for 2 years ive coped for 1 year and its a bit too much. i reali wnt it to chnge to 18

84. I doubt it will change. If it does change they will just make it harder in other ways to get a spouse visa. I have waiting for 1 1/2 year and have got not long to go now. Its been a really hard period.

    1. why do you even doubt it. any valid reason ?